cyman1964ukg Posted 12 hours ago Posted 12 hours ago Hi there, This is my first post here, so please be gentle with me. OK, so I have been playing on and off for decades (40 years), but I would say I am pretty much still a beginner, at best an intermediate player. I was originally self-taught and only got to sonngs involving strumming chords, although I longed to be able to improvise like some of my friends could. So, in these early days (my teens), I knew chords such as A, C, D, E, F, G, Am, Bm, Dm, Em, A7, B7, D7, E7, G7. Whilst I understood the happy/sad difference between major and minor chords, I had no idea that there was a specific, consistent 'rule' (i.e. in this case 'flatten the third') connecting the major and minor chords. I didn't even realise that these chords were made up of 3 notes! It was a total parrot-fashion learning experience for me. I knew then that the chord 'Cmaj' was often abbreviated to just C. Now, zoom forward to today, and I know that major triad chords are actually created using notes 1-3-5 of the major scale and notes 1-3-5 of the minor scale are used for the minor scale (moreover, that this is equivalent of the 1-b3-5 notes of the major scale). However, the terminology used in the naming of these chords now has me utterly confused. Where Cmaj is the same as C, Cmaj7 is not the same as C7. Instead, the seventh chord with no major or minor indicated (e,g, C7) is called the dominant 7th. So, instead, there are these relationships: Cmaj : 1 - 3 - 5 (also known simply as C) Cm: 1 - b3 - 5 Cmaj7: 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 C7: 1 - 3 - 5 - b7 (also known as C dominant 7th) Cm7: 1 - b3 - 5 - b7 And this is just the first few chords!!! I suppose if we never refer to the chord C as just 'C', but always call it 'Cmaj', we could write these out as follows: Cmaj : 1 - 3 - 5 (only ever referred to as Cmaj) Cmaj7: 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 Cm: 1 - b3 - 5 Cm7: 1 - b3 - 5 - b7 C7: 1 - 3 - 5 - b7 (also known as C dominant 7th) I'm not too sure I'm putting my point across too well here, but I am trying to find a 'system' of my own which gets me out of the confusion in the bold font above. Now consider the tons of other terms, like diminished, augmented, suspended, never mind the other 'number terms', like 6th, 9th, add9, 11th, 13th, 7th flat 9, 7th sharp 9, etc and it all becomes a minefield!!! I mean, are we supposed to know what a 'dominant 7th' sounds like and how it differs from a 'major 7th'? That concludes my question about terminology. What I meant by formulas is where can I find a complete list of formulas for all these different chord types? These could be expressed as 1-3-5 (note numbers), C-E-G (key of C. note names), and even as 2W-WH (intervals in terms of Whole and Half Steps). What I meant by MORE formulas is where can I find a complete list of formulas for all the different scale types and modes? Again, the Major scale could be writted as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, for Cmajor scale CDEFGAB(C), and in intervals as W-W-H-W-W-W-H. Indeed, are there only formulas for chords and scales? Are there other formula that are important to know? And no, I don't mean relatively complicated formulae that related string mass thickness and tension to frequency, but rather the stuff we need to know as aspiring guitar players. I suspect that I am overthinking all this, but I feel that a solid understanding of the underlying theory of music, which I wish I had known years ago, helps with one's own playing. Recently, I considered buying various wall-charts showing chord diagrams, scales, circle of 5ths, etc, but I was surprised to find comments by buyers claiming that these were erroneous! So, my question on the formulas is can anyone here please recommend a good (highly regarded and accurate) book which would have all the formulas for chords and scales (and other?) collected in one place? If you have read all this, thanks for your time. I appreciate any responses that I might receive. Cheers, Simon. Quote
Dad3353 Posted 10 hours ago Posted 10 hours ago Good evening, @cyman1964ukg, and ... ... Plenty to read and amuse you here, and lots to learn and share. Simon... It's actually a lot more simple than you're making it, and you're very nearly 'there' with your current reflections in chord construction. The only issue is that you're looking for a 'mathematical' 'logic' that just is not there (and doesn't need to be...). Your starting point of creating with 'triads' (alternate notes of the scale...) works well for Major and Minor chords, and only needs extending a touch by adding the next 'alternate' note to the triad to get the Major 7th and Minor 7th chords. It's easy to visualise on a piano keyboard, adding the 'B' to the 'C' chord (the one below the octave 'C'...) creates the CMaj7 chord. This is consistant when doing the same to the 'DMin' chord (add the next alternate note, ie: the octave 'C'...) and you're crated the DMin7 chord. Continue for each diatonic note of the 'C Major' scale, using alternate notes from the scale, and you've got most of the chords needed for many, many songs. If we 'break' this chord system, and use a flattened '7th' (ie: 'Bb' instead of 'B'...) we get a chord which, when played, has a sonic tendency to want to 'resolve' to the CMajor, which is why it takes the name 'Dominant'. That Bb is not in the C major scale, but as it's a very powerful sounding chord, it has it's place in so many songs, from cowboy campfire songs to much early Bob Dylan stuff. It's a staple in the chord Pantheon. However, the chord naming of 'C7' tricks us into assuming that it's got a '7th' in it. It has not; it's a flattened 7th..! It's only through historical usage that the chords have these names, not 'logic', so get used to it..! As for extending further these chords, we are simply adding another alternate note from the diatonic scale, so, for the 'C' scale, adding a 'D' above the octave gives us a 9th', adding an 'F' is an 11th, then adding the 'A' is a 13th. No point adding further, as we'd only be repeating the notes we started with, but two octaves up. With these 'extended' chords, many other nots would be left out (usually the 5th and 7th...), as too many notes spoil the broth become muddy. I wouldn't worry about 'modes' for a while; they are not really 'mainstream', so get the basics down 'pat' before following down that rabbit hole. Interesting as it is, there's much more practical stuff to assimilate without delving further into It. Hope this helps. Douglas Quote
