Tuners slowly rewind when playing

[aljaxon]

ive recently bought a new eko accoustic guitar and the tuners slowly come loose when playing so the strings go out of tune. i took it back twice and he said he'd changed the strings both times but he hadnt. and he said he'd replaced one tuner and the rest were ok in his opinion after he'd tightened them.

ive given up on the seller helping me.

 

so i want to modify the tuners so that they are stiff like on a much cheaper tanglewood accoustic. the nuts were actually slack so i tightened them up, no difference. and the tiny screws seem tight.  i am a diy mechanic and if it was a moped engine i'd just put some lock washers on or some plastic shims in the right place. or put sawdust in the gear compartment.

 

but it isnt a moped engine so thats why i am here lol. so can they be repaired or modified? im yet to dismantle one fully to see why they are loose. i just thought i'd ask on here first.

when i tighten a string there is resistance on the oval winder bit as per normal.  but if i even touch the oval bit in the direction that loosens the string it moves all to easily. and when i play it goes out of tune after a few minutes. my tanglewood has "stiff" tuners and stays in tune for up to half an hour or more depending how thrashy i get. and even then its only the odd string. any help or advice  appreciated before i reach for the big hammer and tig welder.

[randythoades]

That does sound odd. It is unusual for even cheap tuners to come loose if the string is threaded properly as it's own tension prevents it from moving. You could replace them all relatively cheaply with new ones from Amazon etc. Most of my guitars stay in tune for days at a time, might just need a slight tweak at the start of a session if it has been particularly hot or cold. My ukulele slips out of tune a little over time but they are nylon strings.

But maybe try and re-string but wind the string back over itself so it is gripped between the excess winds:

 

[aljaxon]

i use that knot method for restringing, ive done a dozen re strings. restringing is not the problem. my other far cheaper guitar is fine.

 

imagine going to the finger part of the tuning peg its called the button but i didnt know that and its not a very apt name.   its the winged part like on a wing nut.  . if i try to tighten the string its got a nice resistance and behaves as you would expect.    but if you go to release the tension or unwind its as if its very slack and very happy to unwind and was on the verge of unwinding all the time.

 

there is no resistance to unwinding and with a slight touch it moves far too easily. 

 

surely someone else has had this problem?  ill wait for an answer.   if not ill take one to bits and see whats going on but i am reluctant to do that just yet.

 

and when you say  the strings tension stops it from moving thats the opposite of whats in my mind. surely the more tension on the string the more its trying to be unwound.

 

Edited November 13 by aljaxon

[aljaxon]

ive taken a string off. and the button is free to turn. very free. no resistance at all either direction. i put a string on and there is nice tension when tightening but if i go to slacken its got the same zero resistance in fact its easier to turn it with a string on.    and its almost as if its wanting to spin that way. and im sure with the vibrations during playing they are turning in the slackening direction.

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, aljaxon said:

ive taken a string off. and the button is free to turn. very free. no resistance at all either direction. i put a string on and there is nice tension when tightening but if i go to slacken its got the same zero resistance in fact its easier to turn it with a string on.    and its almost as if its wanting to spin that way. and im sure with the vibrations during playing they are turning in the slackening direction.

 

I''m not sure that I'm fully understanding the issue, here. If it's the string tension making the tuning peg 'run backwards', to unwind, that makes little sense, to me. As you will have noticed, and your moped experience will confirm to you, a 'worm-driven axle' can only turn if the worm (endless gear...) turns. The axle cannot turn the the worm-drive. So, a guitar string can pull all it wants, it cannot make the 'button' turn. I can't understand how that could happen.
One thing comes to mind, however... How are the strings being wound onto the tuning post..? The ideal wrap-around should be at least two, preferably three or four, wraps, and all neatly aligned, as in this photo ...

 

 

There is a technique to stringing a guitar, and folk have differing preferences. Personally, I feed the 'free' end through the hole in the post, keeping the string taut by holding it above the fingerboard (about 10 cms...). I turn the button, and feed the string onto the bottom of the post for the first turn. As I continue to turn the button, I allow the string to cross this lowest turn, and continue wrapping, neatly, until all the slack has been taken up, and the string is now ready to be taken to pitch. There will be, usually, three or four turns on the post by this time, and it is impossible for the string to pull back, still less turn the post or button. Does this make sense to you..? Are you stringing up in this fashion..? If not, how do you go about it..? Over to you... 

[aljaxon]

please please forget the strings. it has absolutely nothing to do with them. 

the post or machine head shaft  that the string is wrapped around is in direct contact ie meshed or geared with the worm. so if one turns the other turns.

 

to go back to a moped the  speedometer is driven by a cable with a worm at the end of the cable. the worm gets turned by an axle. 

 

im going to look at the problem myself by dismantling one. 

 

 

 

 

[Dad3353]

I'd like to see a photo of these tuners. I'm assuming that they are not 'open', but enclosed in some kind of housing..? It's not possible for the shaft to turn the button. If that's happening with yours, then they are not 'worm-driven'. I don't see how the direct of rotation can be obtained without this mechanism. So I maintain that it is impossible to turn the button by string tension, however hard one tries. If, in turning the post, the button turns, there is something radically wrong with the mechanism, or it uses a completely different principle. A photo of these tuners would be helpful; what make of guitar is it..?
I'm not sure, either, what your original Seller has or has not done. If one tuner has been changed, does it have this same bizarre effect..? Where do you live..? Is there not a decent guitar shop or guitar technician in the vicinity..? There is almost certainly a GuitarChat member not too far away that could have a look with more experienced eyes. Do nothing radical for now until the real issue has been established, at least, as there is, for the moment, a lot that seems odd. I understand that you may not be familiar with all the relevant terms; that's not a problem, and quite normal. The description so far, though, makes making helpful suggestions a little difficult. Patience; leave the claw hammer and chainsaw to one side until we get some more light on the problem.
So.... Any chance of photos, of the guitar itself and these tricky tuners..? 

[aljaxon]

ive sorted it. i dismantled one completely.   the tiny screws in the centre of the button are supposed to tighten the button (windy bit) down so its tight to turn. or at least stiff. but even when its tightened up fully and at the bottom of its threads the button was free to turn in the slackening direction only. . much much much more willing to turn in the direction of slackening as opposed to tightening where it was as stiff  as you would expect.  the pathetic wave washer supposed to apply tension is wholly inadequate. far too thin and flimsy. so i simply fitted another washer over the spindle that the button keys onto so that the screw when tightened actually makes the button stiffer. luckily i have washers down to 3mm ID. and this made it so that the button was stiff to turn in either direction. 2 hours playing last night and what a lovely sound. i realised if i tuned it previously within seconds one or more of the strings would go ever so slightly out of tune and it always sounded funny/bad.

im crap at playing a guitar but i can tune one by ear without having to press any frets. sadly with this same tuneful ear i can hear how crap my singing is. 

 

 

the tuners are very similar to these. fully enclosed.

https://www.stourmusic.co.uk/product-page/eko-s300v-maple-sunburst

[aljaxon]

ive done some reading and some cheap machine heads are bad and you cant tune down to get it in tune because they just go out of tune too quick, likely by carrying  on turning down by themselves. so you have to go lower and then tune up to get it in tune.  thats what the seller told me  tune back up. and it helped a tiny bit. but they still just turned by themselves no doubt encouraged by string tension. i mean they arent going to tighten up are they?  i looked at the design and the worm is designed to be forced in one direction and hence persuaded not to turn. but it can and does. only a tiny bit but thats all it takes.

 

but not now. its perfect thanks to the tiny washers making the screws actually do their job. thanks for trying to help Dad 3353. guitars arent as difficult to set up as people think. i am a builder and diy mechanic and there is nothing i wouldnt take on myself. ive made nuts from scratch even widened the spacing from std. shortened and packed saddles up. plus ive got a ruddy great big hammer.