Acoustic vs plugged in or archtop

[randythoades]

I have a problem with pure acoustic vs plugged in tones.

 

Due to my arthritis progressing at a steady rate I have decided to start a new band before I run out of time... We ideally want to be an acoustic band sitting in the back of the pub or restaurant, playing at a garden party or event, or busking, open mic night or jam sessions. The band make up is one vocalist, myself on guitar and another on accordion, both of us doing accapella type backing to add extra melody, basslines etc as required. We are attempting to play a variety of well known material in a broadly americana style veering from bluegrass, delta blues and folk, to dixieland jazz and almost rockabilly.

 

But my guitar doesn't gel well with the accordion, it isn't loud enough and seems to be missing a huge amount of middle frequency. Obviously, I can't change the overall sound of the accordion, but by it's nature it has quite a polarised nature, lots of bass and lots of treble. I tried playing initially with my dreadnought but it broadly has the same sound space as the accordion. My other acoustic is an OM size with a soundhole pickup and it is better but lacks the volume required when the accordion plays longer notes and although it is more balanced and less bass heavy it still has a similar thing. I like it when playing solo, but don't like the combination with the other instrument. Also doesn't help that due to the arthritis, I can't hold a pick properly so tend to play similar to Mark Knopfler and use my thumb and first finger together as a sort of plectrum motion and the other 3 fingers to pluck upwards, but I don't play actual finger style. It helps when I play barre chords rather than open chords, as well as comping, stabs, arpeggios and melodies in the higher registers, but some songs are just awkward to play.

 

I can plug into my acoustic amp and take some of the bass and treble out, thus emphasising the mid frequency (as well as increasing volume as much as needed) which improves things sufficiently but I want to try and not have an amp if possible, I don't want the extra gear to take, nor the need for electricity if I can help it. I like the idea of being authentic/vintage and the simplicity of being able to just pitch up and play, or even walking around.

As I see it I only have 2 options...

 

A: Get a decent battery powered acoustic amp to remain cable free, or possibly a battery powered PA speaker for both lead vocal and guitar reinforcement.

B: Get a different guitar... would something like a resonator or archtop be a more mid focussed sound or louder in volume? I certainly wouldn't mind the visual benefits of looking different from all the other acoustic bands

 

The accordion player is a relative beginner so doesn't have some of the subtlety yet on the instrument to vary his volume to a huge degree so it falls to me to fit around him if I can.

Are there any other options I might have missed or would just a change in approach be the better option overall?

Edited February 29 by randythoades
spelling

[Dad3353]

Originally, resonator guitars were invented for just this reason : cut through against competition from the brass section, without an amp..!. Worth a try, especially if the repertoire is suitable. One or two points to consider : many players use a reso guitar like a lap-steel; these models have a square neck profile, unsuitable for 'standard' guitar playing position. Look at models with a rounded 'C' or 'U' profile instead. Some models have a piezo mic built in, but more rarely with a pre-amp, which makes amplifying a little trickier, as either the amp has a piezo input, or an external pre-amp is required. The reso part of the guitar is fragile, so a stout case is needed for anything but home use. They're louder than a folk guitar, especially in the 'medium' frequencies, but won't fill a large hall unaided just the same. Trying a few models would be recommended; proces start at around £300 and go up quite quickly.

On the other hand, it's not uber-effective, but a piece of felt over the accordion grill could be tried to mute it a little..? Some folk remove the grill, line the inside with masking tape or similar, then put the grill back. Choice of register has an effect, with some 'bassier' registers being less strident. Other than that, it's just playing technique to play with less volume. Hope this helps; sounds like a nice project.

[EliasMooseblaster]

A resonator could be just the ticket!

 

My two acoustics are an Epi dreadnought and an Ozark resonator - and the latter is a lot louder! For context: when I play acoustic gigs, I pop both guitars into the PA for a bit of support, but in smaller venues I hardly need to bring up the fader at all on the resonator. (And I also play fingerstyle on these gigs.)

 

It is a much more "boxy" tone, but it sounds like that might be a better fit with the accordion. And if you're playing Americana, it fits a similar space sonically to a banjo.

 

If it's at all useful, this is the guitar I have: https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/product/04112612521018--ozark-3515e-resonator-black-electro-cutaway

[EliasMooseblaster]

8 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Some models have a piezo mic built in, but more rarely with a pre-amp, which makes amplifying a little trickier, as either the amp has a piezo input, or an external pre-amp is required.

 

Mine - and a few others other I've seen - has a magnetic pickup, which definitely benefits from a pre-amp on its way to the desk. On the plus side, I have found it plays very nicely with a Joyo American Sound in that role!

[randythoades]

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Originally, resonator guitars were invented for just this reason : cut through against competition from the brass section, without an amp..!. Worth a try, especially if the repertoire is suitable. One or two points to consider : many players use a reso guitar like a lap-steel; these models have a square neck profile, unsuitable for 'standard' guitar playing position. Look at models with a rounded 'C' or 'U' profile instead. Some models have a piezo mic built in, but more rarely with a pre-amp, which makes amplifying a little trickier, as either the amp has a piezo input, or an external pre-amp is required. The reso part of the guitar is fragile, so a stout case is needed for anything but home use. They're louder than a folk guitar, especially in the 'medium' frequencies, but won't fill a large hall unaided just the same. Trying a few models would be recommended; proces start at around £300 and go up quite quickly.

On the other hand, it's not uber-effective, but a piece of felt over the accordion grill could be tried to mute it a little..? Some folk remove the grill, line the inside with masking tape or similar, then put the grill back. Choice of register has an effect, with some 'bassier' registers being less strident. Other than that, it's just playing technique to play with less volume. Hope this helps; sounds like a nice project.

Thanks @Dad3353. That is a good idea about muting the accordion. Currently I arrange songs based on my pre-conceived ideas and skills and I feel that I ought to play a little more of that stabbing rhythm/comping to keep everyone in time, but some songs definitely benefit from the guitar melody too. So I think there is an element of modifying the approach somewhat. Not to blow a trumpet about it, but I am both the most accomplished musician and vocalist, so I feel it my place to arrange the songs appropriately. It is hard though to arrange with the best overall sound in mind rather than just the parts that I would like to play!!

Thanks for your opionion about resos, I did think from various youtube vids that it seemed a little more brash and mid orientated, but haven't had the chance to ever play one. A slightly more aggressive tone might indeed just make it different enough.

[randythoades]

21 minutes ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

A resonator could be just the ticket!

 

My two acoustics are an Epi dreadnought and an Ozark resonator - and the latter is a lot louder! For context: when I play acoustic gigs, I pop both guitars into the PA for a bit of support, but in smaller venues I hardly need to bring up the fader at all on the resonator. (And I also play fingerstyle on these gigs.)

 

It is a much more "boxy" tone, but it sounds like that might be a better fit with the accordion. And if you're playing Americana, it fits a similar space sonically to a banjo.

 

If it's at all useful, this is the guitar I have: https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/product/04112612521018--ozark-3515e-resonator-black-electro-cutaway

Brilliant, much appreciated indeed. I do feel that a more boxy tone would be of benefit.

I am not averse to playing through PA when needed, but like the idea of a small house party or coffee shop type gig, maybe a wedding to just be there as background music mainly without the need of full PA. But true acoustic would be good and convenient for practice and possibly busking.

Edited February 29 by randythoades

[randythoades]

5 minutes ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

 

Mine - and a few others other I've seen - has a magnetic pickup, which definitely benefits from a pre-amp on its way to the desk. On the plus side, I have found it plays very nicely with a Joyo American Sound in that role!

I also have an American sound already as backup, so I could definitely experiment with that as required.

[randythoades]

Another resonator question then, if you have experience. What is the real world difference between a biscuit bridge and a spider cone? Again, just looking on youtube, a biscuit one sounds a little brighter, more metallic and less sustain, whereas a spider cone sounds closer to a guitar with a slightly warmer tone and more sustain. Is that about it?

Difficult to tell using my computer speakers.

I think that a slightly more metallic one might make me slightly different to the smooth swell of the accordion.

[EliasMooseblaster]

It's quite a long time since I bought my resonator, so I don't have a very clear memory of which types I tried out on the day! My Ozark is definitely a single cone / biscuit bridge type; I remember also trying a couple of Stagg resonators which I believe were spider bridge. I seem to recall the Staggs sounding a bit mellower, but fundamentally still like a resonator - definitely some difference, but probably not enough that you'd mistake it for a "normal" acoustic guitar.

 

If you are able to get to a shop to try a couple, it might be worthwhile to. But if not, I don't think the type would make too much difference - a biscuit, spider or tricone are probably all equally capable of making their presence felt against the accordion!

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

Another resonator question then, if you have experience. What is the real world difference between a biscuit bridge and a spider cone? Again, just looking on youtube, a biscuit one sounds a little brighter, more metallic and less sustain, whereas a spider cone sounds closer to a guitar with a slightly warmer tone and more sustain. Is that about it?

Difficult to tell using my computer speakers.

I think that a slightly more metallic one might make me slightly different to the smooth swell of the accordion.

 

The 'biscuit' tone is louder and more 'brash', used more on 'standard' guitars. The 'spider' would be warmer, and usually found on lap-steel players' guitars (with their square neck profile...). I'd suggest looking at 'biscuit'. I don't think that 'tricone' would bring much to the party. 

Edited February 29 by Dad3353

[Musical Mystery Tour]

I would be inclined to use a resonator guitar and add a pick up to it, going into something simple such as a Caline Lorcan amp, which is small but loud enough for what you want, can even run without mains for three hours, and has a built in delay effect, then go through an EQ pedal to the Lorcan (up to three pedals can take power from the Lorcan - it comes with the cables for that purpose). In that way, if the resonator isn't doing it all on its own, you can use the EQ to give the pickup on the guitar the necessary frequencies to have it poke through a suitable frequency hole in the accordian's range. I can recommend the Recording King RPH-R1-TS Dirty Thirties resonator, which is comparatively inexpensive (abut 300 quid), but with its spruce top and resonator, it is bright yet has some warmer undertones too, so it hits quite a broad range of frequencies, and if you added a pick up to it, its range could be further tailored to suit you requirements even more via an EQ pedal.

[randythoades]

On 01/03/2024 at 15:58, Musical Mystery Tour said:

I would be inclined to use a resonator guitar and add a pick up to it, going into something simple such as a Caline Lorcan amp, which is small but loud enough for what you want, can even run without mains for three hours, and has a built in delay effect, then go through an EQ pedal to the Lorcan (up to three pedals can take power from the Lorcan - it comes with the cables for that purpose). In that way, if the resonator isn't doing it all on its own, you can use the EQ to give the pickup on the guitar the necessary frequencies to have it poke through a suitable frequency hole in the accordian's range. I can recommend the Recording King RPH-R1-TS Dirty Thirties resonator, which is comparatively inexpensive (abut 300 quid), but with its spruce top and resonator, it is bright yet has some warmer undertones too, so it hits quite a broad range of frequencies, and if you added a pick up to it, its range could be further tailored to suit you requirements even more via an EQ pedal.

Thanks. Spent the weekend looking at resonators. I didn't realise there was so much choice. Some have pickups, some piezo and some magnetic. I think a pickup would be handy just in case for those louder setups, and yes, a battery amp would be great for that. Bigger venues I would probably just mic and go into PA as I don't intend to be moving around much, it is a low key affair.

It looks like most of the resonator strings are bronze like acoustic guitar, but they don't work great on magnetic pickups. Can I use heavy guage electric strings instead?

Also read some info saying that you can't really lower the action on a resoantor, so not sure if slide setups would be too high an action for me to play 'regular' guitar parts. I will make a point of going across to Andertons or Guitar Guitar and actually playing some in the next couple of weeks rather than buy blind...

[EliasMooseblaster]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

It looks like most of the resonator strings are bronze like acoustic guitar, but they don't work great on magnetic pickups. Can I use heavy guage electric strings instead?

Also read some info saying that you can't really lower the action on a resoantor, so not sure if slide setups would be too high an action for me to play 'regular' guitar parts.

So I think the magnetic pickups are more like the soundhole pickups you can buy for acoustic guitars - mine has had no issues with bronze strings (other than wanting a preamp in the signal chain). Never tried putting electric string on it - though I imagine that would make it much quieter unplugged, so kind of defeating the point of it!

 

I don't think there's a way to adjust the action at the bridge or tailpiece (a clever guitar tech might beg to differ). However you can always take it down at the nut end - depends how much you need to use the upper frets, I guess! Might be worth asking if you can talk to a tech in Andertons or GG - I use mine almost exclusively for slide, so I'm not the best person to ask.

[randythoades]

6 minutes ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

So I think the magnetic pickups are more like the soundhole pickups you can buy for acoustic guitars - mine has had no issues with bronze strings (other than wanting a preamp in the signal chain). Never tried putting electric string on it - though I imagine that would make it much quieter unplugged, so kind of defeating the point of it!

 

I don't think there's a way to adjust the action at the bridge or tailpiece (a clever guitar tech might beg to differ). However you can always take it down at the nut end - depends how much you need to use the upper frets, I guess! Might be worth asking if you can talk to a tech in Andertons or GG - I use mine almost exclusively for slide, so I'm not the best person to ask.

I intend to use like my regular guitar, but certainly would want to use higher inversions and melody fills to avoid the same frequency range as the accordion. But I don't intend to play high register solos or anything like that.

Very true about the strings, acoustic volume probably the deciding factor overall... but if you need a preamp on a mag pickup, does that not mean that the signal from the strings isn't loud enough? I don't have to use a separate preamp for my existing soundhole pickup. I think this is going to be one of those rabbit holes that you wish you had never started down, a bit like when choosing strings for the upright bass...

 

Was looking in detail again over the weekend at some of the tracks and I think it may be possible to also re-arrange the songs better so that both the guitar and the accordion are playing less and therefore creating a little more space for both instruments to do their bit.

 

Thanks for all the input, gives me a great starting point to adjust both playing and sound to enable this to work better.. much appreciated

[EliasMooseblaster]

3 hours ago, randythoades said:

I don't have to use a separate preamp for my existing soundhole pickup. I think this is going to be one of those rabbit holes that you wish you had never started down, a bit like when choosing strings for the upright bass...

 

No problem at all; happy to help where I can! The preamp in my signal chain is really just for tone, to make it sound a bit less sterile - level-wise it's comparable to the Fishman I pop in and out of my normal acoustic.

[randythoades]

Just as an update.

I did go and have a play on a variety of resonators. None really floated my boat. The high action wasn't ideal at all for my arthritis, and the overly metallic nature started to grate on me after an hour or so. So, I can see one as a nice addition to the stable, but not as a main instrument. Strangely, the Fender PR180 E seemed the best for me - much more guitar like, lower action and less aggressive sound than the others. I am sure that this is intentional from Fender to sell to their normal customer base, and it would definitely suit me better.

But I felt it kind of missed the point. It wasn't resonator enough for most, and not acoustic guitar enough for others. Not enough aggression to cut through my mix, not much better than my regular acoustic (with EQ tweak) and not as nice to play. But purely acoustic it is definitely quite a bit louder which was the original requirement.

The Fender will definitely be on my list as a 'nice to have' but I have started looking at battery powered acoustic amps or speakers as a short term alternative.

 

In all honesty, I have started doing the same band as a duo, same singer and myself but without the accordion player which is a lot easier to work through. Not exactly split up the trio, but just meeting up less frequently!

[Strumbarmy]

I bought myself a semi acoustic Ibanez Atcore to get the "in between" sound that I like.  It also has the vibrato arm if you want a bit of shimmy.  I love it but my better half doesn't as she can hear me practise, even when I'm wearing headphones (obvious to guitarists but not to her indoors who thinks that headphones should eliminate all the guitar "noise"!)  I also got a Nu-x Mighty Plug headphone amp which can be used with any electric guitar to add effects and power wired headphones, earbuds and a small powered or battery amp/speaker such as the Marshall MS-2C.  There is an app called Mightier that upgrades the Nu-x for use with a bluetooth phone for allsorts of tuneable effects.

 

Edited June 22 by Strumbarmy

[randythoades]

On 22/06/2024 at 17:23, Strumbarmy said:

I bought myself a semi acoustic Ibanez Atcore to get the "in between" sound that I like.  It also has the vibrato arm if you want a bit of shimmy.  I love it but my better half doesn't as she can hear me practise, even when I'm wearing headphones (obvious to guitarists but not to her indoors who thinks that headphones should eliminate all the guitar "noise"!)  I also got a Nu-x Mighty Plug headphone amp which can be used with any electric guitar to add effects and power wired headphones, earbuds and a small powered or battery amp/speaker such as the Marshall MS-2C.  There is an app called Mightier that upgrades the Nu-x for use with a bluetooth phone for allsorts of tuneable effects.

 

That is lovely. I have a similar Aria that I am struggling to get on with, mainly due to the size. But this style does look beautiful.

[Strumbarmy]

On 27/06/2024 at 10:02, randythoades said:

That is lovely. I have a similar Aria that I am struggling to get on with, mainly due to the size. But this style does look beautiful.

Well, the Artcore had to go!  It was the "noisy guitar" or her and as we've been together over 50 years, the Artcore went today!  I've still got my Burns Shadow Special advertised as it spends most of its life in the case (don't want my granson to scratch it!).  Once that's gone, I may have to look at a nice strat that I can play through headphones without disturbing anyone!

[randythoades]

My wife says the same and I know what she means.

It isn't a nice full pleasant sound like a full acoustic, but it is much louder than the solid body electric. I am tending to play more acoustic than electric now in any case so try to bury myself in the furthest part of the house to prevent the banging on the ceiling/floor or walls to 'turn that bloody thing down'...