Are all new guitars good now, even the cheapest ones?

[YnJ]

I've noticed that you get get some really decent guitars for less than you would consider worth getting a few decades ago. I recall not considering anything priced less than 800 pounds worth getting back at the end of the 80's. Now, it seems that you can get guitars with same build quality as premium guitars for less than 500 pounds. And better made than some of the more expensive made guitars from the 80's as well

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, YnJ said:

I've noticed that you get get some really decent guitars for less than you would consider worth getting a few decades ago. I recall not considering anything priced less than 800 pounds worth getting back at the end of the 80's. Now, it seems that you can get guitars with same build quality as premium guitars for less than 500 pounds. And better made than some of the more expensive made guitars from the 80's as well

 

Progress has been made with colour televisions, telephones, computers and recording equipment, too. There's no reason why guitar manufacturing should not improve. 

[randythoades]

There are definitely some great guitars now for reasonable cost with the advances of manufacturing.

I assume manufacturers also realise that there is a huge market there for reasonable instruments to get players hooked and invested in a brand. But the principle is the same as it always was, it is a case of diminishing returns and you still get premium guitars from all brands that just make everything just that little bit smoother, nicer, better compnents and with more character (and a lot more money). For those gigging every week, those more premium guitars still make a lot of sense, but the lower and mid priced guitars are great options as backups or for us beginner or intermediate players and can be a great base with which to uprgrade as you go along.

For myself, I have done the custom order and US Fenders path but realised that using a different instrument gets me excited and forces me to experiment with other styles and licks that I wouldn't have done, so rather than one or 2 premium guitars I now have 10 reasonable ones in different styles. I still spent the same money but now have more choice and more to store...!

[YnJ]

There are a few things which are not getting cheaper though. I guess most guitars are made by machines now, and that the biggest difference between a low priced guitar and a premium is in type of wood, pick ups and things like that. I'm starting to go down the path of picking up more reasonably priced guitars myself. I have a couple of premium guitars, I would never pay that much for premium versions of some of the guitars I'm getting now though. Also, lower priced guitars are sometimes excellent for modding, not sure if it will save me money, I can at least mod it to my own specs though

[randythoades]

Very true.

To my mind, as long as the body and neck are comfortable and reasonable then I am happy to mod the rest if necessary.

I have even gone down the road of just buying neck and body (or even just a wood blank) separately and making up my own to my own spec, but it ends up costing quite a bit more than buying something akin to a Squier Classic Vibe. The only bit I would struggle to do in a build is the neck itself, so have used the same necks on several different projects.

But by the time you have bought new bridge, machine heads etc you may have well just bought something mid range and keep those parts, just upgrading electronics etc, but the Squier CV in particular (as well as other mid range brands - Vintage, Yamaha, Cort, Ltd etc) are actually pretty good and don't need a lot done except for personal taste.

And although they are not getting actually cheaper necessarily, they are when you consider inflation. And spending £400 on a mid range guitar today gets you something you could only have dreamed of 20 years ago for the same money.

 

[YnJ]

The Classic Vibe series is sort of Squire's premium guitars I guess. I suspect you might need to change the pick ups if you want to use them on stage. Apart from that they're pretty solid

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, YnJ said:

The Classic Vibe series is sort of Squire's premium guitars I guess. I suspect you might need to change the pick ups if you want to use them on stage. Apart from that they're pretty solid

 

There's nothing to change on most guitars for stage use, except for one's personal satisfaction. They're almost all 'fit for purpose', in the right hands. 

[EdwardMarlowe]

5 hours ago, randythoades said:

Very true.

To my mind, as long as the body and neck are comfortable and reasonable then I am happy to mod the rest if necessary.

I have even gone down the road of just buying neck and body (or even just a wood blank) separately and making up my own to my own spec, but it ends up costing quite a bit more than buying something akin to a Squier Classic Vibe. The only bit I would struggle to do in a build is the neck itself, so have used the same necks on several different projects.

But by the time you have bought new bridge, machine heads etc you may have well just bought something mid range and keep those parts, just upgrading electronics etc, but the Squier CV in particular (as well as other mid range brands - Vintage, Yamaha, Cort, Ltd etc) are actually pretty good and don't need a lot done except for personal taste.

And although they are not getting actually cheaper necessarily, they are when you consider inflation. And spending £400 on a mid range guitar today gets you something you could only have dreamed of 20 years ago for the same money.

 

 

I've seen a surprising number of gigging musicians wielding Squiers over the years; JHS's Vintage brand are also fast gaining a gigging following in the UK. There's something to be said for the utilitarian - "It's a tool" approach. Especially if you, like me, prefer Fender styles for the most part - much easier upgraded, or returned to stock / parted out without great loss if you need/ want to move them on. There is certainly a danger in falling into the trap of replacing bits here and there to "upgrade" if you buy with the notion that it 'needs' "better". Unless buying specifically for a project to put together something not commercially available, I have learned to get used to a guitar and let its personality bed in first. This is where I go all woowoo, but I've seen over the years one too many guitars that just had... something.... lose that mojo once bits started getting replaced to "upgrade". I won't be precious about replacing parts on my HBs if and when something breaks or I find in use I want something more. The real test of my resolve on this will be if I ever pick up one of their Strats; I'm not planning that right now, but if they did a left handed version of the Anniversary model Strat except in a more 50s vibe, 21 frets, skunk stripe and all - the ST-62DLX would be a very good base for this, just add stainless steel frets and a LPB body.... I'd likely buy one. The test of my resolve would be to give that thin trem block a fair shake before trying to put a bigger one in there. In practice, though, I keep hearing from players which have experienced one that it really loses nothing for the slimmer block... 

In terms of getting cheaper - yeah, advances in CNC production have really benefited guitar manufacture for sure. I remember guys thirty years ago marvelling over the Squiers that were then £120 new (about £250 now) compared to more expensive guitars they started on, and now I'm doing that myself. Of course, HB also benefits from basically being able to offer wholesale prices at retail due to the business model, which helps! And, I think, without the "Heritage" brand to play on, they also need to be a bit better than the direct competition to find the market. In my experience they are succeeding because they are. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

There's nothing to change on most guitars for stage use, except for one's personal satisfaction. They're almost all 'fit for purpose', in the right hands. 

 

 

I've got no time at all for the common sneer, popular on particular US guitar websites, of "Guitars for lawyers and dentists". Possibly partly because I *am* an academic lawyer, and I'll never be able to afford / justify a guitar at the sort of money 99.9% of those bearing to Gibson name, or any US Fender nowadays, go for. Nonetheless, what I do see in practice is a lot of expensive guitars being purchased as luxuries by guys working in various, high-paying jobs who play and, quite rightly, want to enjoy their money (if I was on Beckham's money or a Court of Appeal judge's salary, I'd have two or three Gretsch 6210s, including the Brian Setzer models. Given the sort of money a Musk or a Zuckerberg has, I'd quite probably have the Fender custom shop build me a dream Strat - though just to be an awkward cuss I'd want them to label it as a Squier!). Working musicians, however, save for those who have hit the real big time, I increasingly see playing mid-tier guitars. Fender Players, Vintage brand guitars (sometimes their 'proshop' versions, an interesting concept itself - It would be fascinating to see how a Harley Benton take on that concept would go). Even some who do have the big money guitars prefer something more 'affordable' to play live. 

I've come myself back to the mid-price stuff, with Harley Benton a real prize find for both their excellent value and - significantly - the sheer range of left handed options they offer. When I started playing, I wouldn't really have noticed the difference between a US Fender and a Squier. Then I got to a point I could. There comes a time in life, however, when I realise I'm never going to be a rock star, and saving for two years to buy "the best" isn't always the best course of action. I think with experience I've just developed the confidence to know what does the job I'll need it for, to know that, yes, spending x more will give me Y improvement / difference, but knowing whether that difference is worth it to me. It's a nice place to be. Sure, if the lottery win came in, after the big house in Zone 2/3, the new leather jackets and the motorcycle, I'd buy a couple of dream guitars, but there's a certain joy in finding I have as much fun with my HB Junior as I do with my Fenders, at a much lower buy in. Maybe - to circle back to your comment above - it really is as simple as it sinking in that a more expensive guitar won't make me any better a player, and it's all about enjoying playing it rather than any cachet it might have in and of itself. Perhaps it also comes into the mix that although I have (with some to be sold, and others to replace them) about a dozen guitars (including basses and acoustics), I'm buying to have fun playing them rather than to 'collect' as such. If I were looking to 'collect' I'd possibly be more focussed on a specific, maybe bigger, brand - or on keeping some of what I'm letting go (Westones and a Steinberger Spirit in particular) as those are perhaps much rarer than what I have chosen to replace them with. 

 

[The Pinky]

As a returnee to playing guitar, I was (and still am) blown away by the apparently immense range of affordable and playable guitars that are available these days.  My first electric which I purchased back in the late 70s was a telecaster copy that quite frankly had not had the easiest life and was not that easy to play.  Fast forward 45 plus years and I now own a second hand epiphone which is far better to play and in much nicer condition even though it was used by a gigging musician who obviously looked after and loved it.  The price I paid for the telecaster was £21 which I reckon is comparable to the £100 ish I paid for the Epiphone taking into account inflation etc.   I would like another telecaster (probably for nostalgic reasons rather than anything else) but I very much doubt I would pay top whack for a real one as I doubt if I would notice the difference, so would probably go for the more mid-range priced models.  I also seem to remember that the Gibson Les Paul was a really expensive guitar in the late 70s closely followed by the SG and then the Fender models, whereas now they appear to me to be far more affordable.

 

Please note that I don't speak with any authority or great knowledge on this subject and this is purely based on my observations and experiences, I leave the expert opinion to you more suitably knowledgeable and experienced guys and girls, all I know is that I have the nicest guitars I have ever owned for what appears to be similar prices taking into account the passage of time and inflation etc.

[Crusoe]

When I read comments about Gibson quality control, I think you could say that not all guitars are good now, even the expensive ones. 

[EdwardMarlowe]

1 hour ago, Crusoe said:

When I read comments about Gibson quality control, I think you could say that not all guitars are good now, even the expensive ones. 

Ha! Yes. I've never been a Gibson man, but it does seem that, if the user / buyer buzz to to be believed, they're going through a bit of a bad period for their QC. Either that, or their marketing approach of selling them as a lifestyle brand at high prices combined with inflation has led expectations to outstrip the realities off mass production? 

[Crusoe]

22 hours ago, EdwardMarlowe said:

Ha! Yes. I've never been a Gibson man, but it does seem that, if the user / buyer buzz to to be believed, they're going through a bit of a bad period for their QC. Either that, or their marketing approach of selling them as a lifestyle brand at high prices combined with inflation has led expectations to outstrip the realities off mass production? 

I've never played one (not sure I've ever even touched one), so that was a bit tongue in cheek, but I have seen comments on their QC. Still, I imagine that they produce excellent guitars in general.

[Kiwi]

On 20/08/2023 at 16:48, Crusoe said:

I've never played one (not sure I've ever even touched one), so that was a bit tongue in cheek, but I have seen comments on their QC. Still, I imagine that they produce excellent guitars in general.

I had the chance to check out a brand new new LP Standard during a course and the fretwork on it was shocking for a three grand instrument.  Sire do a much, much better job.

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 20/08/2023 at 09:48, Crusoe said:

I've never played one (not sure I've ever even touched one), so that was a bit tongue in cheek, but I have seen comments on their QC. Still, I imagine that they produce excellent guitars in general.

Oh, when they get it right they get it *right*. A good Gibson will always be great. A nice Les Paul is twice the guitar my Epiphone version is. Twice the guitar at five times the price.... which comes right back to where you want to jump off the scale of diminishing returns against rising prices! 

As an aside, oddly enough being left handed turns out to be a plus when it comes to QA - it seems that there being so many fewer of them, from pretty much any company, they get that bit more individual attention... 

[EdwardMarlowe]

7 hours ago, Kiwi said:

I had the chance to check out a brand new new LP Standard during a course and the fretwork on it was shocking for a three grand instrument.  Sire do a much, much better job.

Some time after Gibson repositioned themselves in the market as a luxury, lifestyle brand, I get the impression they sort of over-relied occasionally on the brand. It'll be interesting to see where they go as the guitar market drops off a bit. I don't know what he new generation of players are into these days, but I get the impression there's a lot more competition out there now for the established classics, and more readiness in the market to go outside the "originals" for the classic desis even if the guitar market remains fairly robustly conservative in terms of design, materials, w.h.y.). 

[Kiwi]

Given they've reacquired a stash of specifications and other docs from the early 30's through to 1969, I'm expecting a heavy release of re-issue vintage amps with tenuous claims of relevance to 50's and 60's pop music.

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 26/08/2023 at 03:34, Kiwi said:

Given they've reacquired a stash of specifications and other docs from the early 30's through to 1969, I'm expecting a heavy release of re-issue vintage amps with tenuous claims of relevance to 50's and 60's pop music.

I'm hoping that I live long enough for Fender's patent to expire on the Tonemaster modelling circuits, and HB step up with a tweed 50s Twin. Money no object, I'd buy the Fender Tonemaster Twin Reverb, and then agitate them for the Tonemaster tweed Champ & tweed Twin as well.... dream amp stuff. 

[EdwardMarlowe]

Interesting link here - https://www.gearnews.com/fender-telecaster-vs-harley-benton-te-can-you-tell-the-difference/

Direct comparison between a high end Fender and the Harley Benton TE-52.  While I would think it madness to suggest the two are interchangeable, the difference between a good, cheap guitar and a great, expensive one is definitely much narrower than was the case thirty years ago. 

FWIW, in this blind test, dealing with sound alone.... I was very much impressed by both guitars. I did have a definite preference of the two - which I thought to be the Fender, but it was actually the HB. 

[Kiwi]

On 28/08/2023 at 21:22, EdwardMarlowe said:

I'm hoping that I live long enough for Fender's patent to expire on the Tonemaster modelling circuits, and HB step up with a tweed 50s Twin. Money no object, I'd buy the Fender Tonemaster Twin Reverb, and then agitate them for the Tonemaster tweed Champ & tweed Twin as well.... dream amp stuff. 

I think it would make absolute commercial sense to issue TM version of the Tweed Champ given it's place in music history.  I'm not familiar with the tweed twin but I believe Fender already offer the TM version of the Twin.  

If they released a TM version of a Rivera Stage 4 modified Princeton, I wouldn't be able to throw money at them fast enough.  Especially considering how good their TM Deluxe Reverb already is.

[EdwardMarlowe]

9 hours ago, Kiwi said:

I think it would make absolute commercial sense to issue TM version of the Tweed Champ given it's place in music history.  I'm not familiar with the tweed twin but I believe Fender already offer the TM version of the Twin.  

If they released a TM version of a Rivera Stage 4 modified Princeton, I wouldn't be able to throw money at them fast enough.  Especially considering how good their TM Deluxe Reverb already is.

Oh, if I was a vastly better player, I'd have the Twin Reverb model already. It's an amp that  crops up again and again among players i really like - Chuck Berry, Keef, Steve Jones; I have heard it said that Johnny Ramones used one at some point during early Ramones recordings.  I completely agree on the Champ. I suspect what it boils down to is they are aiming these amps at gigging guitarists who want an amp that completely looks the part, but is more convenient / lighter / w.h.y. Yeah, they have a built-in attenuator, but I think the design intent is "practice at home on the amp you gig" rather than "play a classic amp at home volumes" in and of itself. 

The Champ might have to wait until a lot more players are using amp-alternatives, and just want a small box they cam play like a trad amp at home, or plug right into the PA at gigs. The lineup overall has a glaring hole in terms of lack of tweed, though. A Tweed, 57 Twin in Tonemaster form would be outstanding, though I suspect they might be more likely to go with a Bassman first. The Tweed Twin would, I should have thought, be an easier one to put together by tweaking the blackface version, but I can see the Bassman perhaps being more obvious from the commercial pov. 

 

[drlargepants]

I’d say yes to a point. We seem to have come a long way from the Marlin Sidewinder etc 

 

 

[drlargepants]

On 23/08/2023 at 06:57, Kiwi said:

I had the chance to check out a brand new new LP Standard during a course and the fretwork on it was shocking for a three grand instrument.  Sire do a much, much better job.

Pre covid I was looking at the Gibson section in a big music store chain in the UK. 355s,SGs, Les Pauls etc. 

 

Every single one had really rough fretwork, like really bad done with a spoon style. 
 

My 2001 SG has pretty poor fretwork also in fairness. 
 

I don’t think I’ve seen an Epiphone with bad fretwork ever. 

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 08/09/2023 at 20:40, drlargepants said:

I’d say yes to a point. We seem to have come a long way from the Marlin Sidewinder etc 

 

 

and even those were a huge step forward in their day. There was one year when the Sidewinder markedly outsold the Squier in the UK - and Squier seriously upped their game after that. The next big leap was when Yamaha put out the Pacifica 112 with a solid wood body. Remember the ad campaign which showed the butt end of a Yamaha and a competitor (impliedly a Squier) with the paint scraped off showing the 'brand x' was ply, and the Yammy solid? Caption - "Just ask them if it's available in a natural finish" or similar...  IMO, that's when Budget brands really started to step up their game. 

The next big leap was when they started to aspire to produce budget instruments for the long term player, even performer - not just beginners. I see Vintage (started off as a premium version of an Encore) are now styled as "quality guitars for the working musician", and really expanding their endorsee-user base. That sort of rethinking the "budget" concept - along with HB disrupting the model to provide so much more for a lower cost to the end consumer - is really light years away from the days of the Sidewinder. (I'd love to give one of those a go now, see if they're as playable as I remember!) 

[Crusoe]

21 hours ago, EdwardMarlowe said:

and even those were a huge step forward in their day. There was one year when the Sidewinder markedly outsold the Squier in the UK - and Squier seriously upped their game after that. The next big leap was when Yamaha put out the Pacifica 112 with a solid wood body. Remember the ad campaign which showed the butt end of a Yamaha and a competitor (impliedly a Squier) with the paint scraped off showing the 'brand x' was ply, and the Yammy solid? Caption - "Just ask them if it's available in a natural finish" or similar...  IMO, that's when Budget brands really started to step up their game. 

The next big leap was when they started to aspire to produce budget instruments for the long term player, even performer - not just beginners. I see Vintage (started off as a premium version of an Encore) are now styled as "quality guitars for the working musician", and really expanding their endorsee-user base. That sort of rethinking the "budget" concept - along with HB disrupting the model to provide so much more for a lower cost to the end consumer - is really light years away from the days of the Sidewinder. (I'd love to give one of those a go now, see if they're as playable as I remember!) 

Get yourself down to the local Cash Converters. There's bound to be at least one in there that you can try. 

[drlargepants]

On 11/09/2023 at 14:07, Crusoe said:

Get yourself down to the local Cash Converters. There's bound to be at least one in there that you can try. 

best left in the fond memories bucket imo