Anyone started using Pedal board amps?

[randythoades]

I do use an amp at home and occasionally live, but I tend to use a Zoom multi effects or Joyo American sound pedal along with a boost into a H+K Red box and into PA for most live work for the convenience (which is few and far at the moment).

 

I have started seeing ads and You Tube reviews for a variety of preamps built into small pedal board amps, which seem to fit a nice gap and might suit for both my uses. I could use this as a small standalone amp on a pedal board with boost and reverb for both home, rehearsal and live.

Does anyone have any experience at all with them? Do they actually work as both an amp and a DI stage solution?

 

I only need one 'sound' (nothing too high gain or modern - Fenderish crunchy country/rockabilly and 70s rock sounds), although having 2 channel flexibility would be nice to set an almost clean and crunch sound as I do with my normal home amp, rather than needing to either use an overdrive or be knob twiddling between tracks or sessions. Apart from that, maybe 10-20 watts output would be more than enough for home, rehearsal and monitoring purpose and a cab sim DI for PA use or into my audio interface for recording.

 

Any one using such a setup?

I know there are plenty of preamps and FX systems available, but then you still need some form of power amp to run at rehearsal and monitoring, so mixing the two into one small format pedal seems like a great idea. But is it a better idea on paper than in practice?

[Kiwi]

I had a look at getting a pair of the Mooer Baby Bombs for use with my Kemper Stage. However using two apparently results in phasing issues! So I dunno...everything else being equal, I'm probably inclined to get a pair of QSC K12.2 active PA cabs instead if I ever gig again.  Unlike your set up, they will generally benefit from speaker emulation - which the Kemper has, of course.

[randythoades]

22 hours ago, Kiwi said:

I had a look at getting a pair of the Mooer Baby Bombs for use with my Kemper Stage. However using two apparently results in phasing issues! So I dunno...everything else being equal, I'm probably inclined to get a pair of QSC K12.2 active PA cabs instead if I ever gig again.  Unlike your set up, they will generally benefit from speaker emulation - which the Kemper has, of course.

Thanks @Kiwi. I have been using the Zoom into active Yamaha cab for rehearsals and monitoring, but I still have that feeling of slight disconnection with the sound, it is better with the American sound, but that just feels like a bit convoluted to get it all into the PA and the IEM for those that use them. And a general pain to just get it out to play at home.

I just thought that an actual amp on the pedal board might be best of both worlds, I could lose my amp sim pedal and use it like a regular amp for rehearsals.

 

To be honest, if I am realistic, I suppose I want more of a convenient home / rehearsal setup which I can easily use live if the situation arises. At the moment, I have both setups taking up room.

 

With bass I just have a small GK MB200 amp, 112 cab, with DI into PA so I use one solution for all situations, but guitar amps with effective DI seem to be a little thin on the ground unless you want the full modelling experience (but I don't need or want all of those options). I do have a Roland Blues Cube Hot which has a line out for PA (which is just about OK). It stays clean pretty much the whole way up for rockabilly, but an amp that will do the country slightly crunch tones without a pedal would be handy. The bigger Blues cube does have 2 channel, which could work, but I don't really need the 100w output.

[randythoades]

And, an excuse to buy another amp that the wife doesn't notice, can never be a bad thing...!

[Kiwi]

On 19/04/2023 at 16:15, randythoades said:

Thanks @Kiwi. I have been using the Zoom into active Yamaha cab for rehearsals and monitoring, but I still have that feeling of slight disconnection with the sound, it is better with the American sound, but that just feels like a bit convoluted to get it all into the PA and the IEM for those that use them. And a general pain to just get it out to play at home.  I just thought that an actual amp on the pedal board might be best of both worlds, I could lose my amp sim pedal and use it like a regular amp for rehearsals.

 

To be honest, if I am realistic, I suppose I want more of a convenient home / rehearsal setup which I can easily use live if the situation arises. At the moment, I have both setups taking up room.

 

With bass I just have a small GK MB200 amp, 112 cab, with DI into PA so I use one solution for all situations, but guitar amps with effective DI seem to be a little thin on the ground unless you want the full modelling experience (but I don't need or want all of those options). I do have a Roland Blues Cube Hot which has a line out for PA (which is just about OK). It stays clean pretty much the whole way up for rockabilly, but an amp that will do the country slightly crunch tones without a pedal would be handy. The bigger Blues cube does have 2 channel, which could work, but I don't really need the 100w output.

I suppose there could be a whiff of lag when you use the Zoom depending on what it is.  I have a Zoom G3X at home which I don't use any more and it's a little noisy and it lags if I try to record and monitor direct rather than through the DAW.  I think you might be ahead of the curve a little bit with your current set up.  Soon many gigging guitarists are going to end up with profilers like Axe FX/Kemper etc. into an active PA cab instead of a full fat valve amp.  The sound of a valve power amp can be so faithfully recreated through profiling although the convincing tech is only really accessible above a certain price point. 

But anyway, back to your set up.  You have a bunch of requirements that AFAIA aren't necessarily supported in the budget kit that is available, much beyond what you already have.  If you are affected by lag in the Zoom then the simple answer is save up for a Kemper/Axe FX etc.   Your Yamaha active PA cab is probably good for gigging with this kind of modelling set up, if the cab is the one I think it might be.  The Kemper also allows you to profile your favourite OD pedals as well as amps so you could conceivably include your JF14 as a patch (there's one already available to download BTW) or you could use a number of profiles from the original amps that the Joyo pedal emulates itself.  And you could use a Kemper with both bass and guitar.  Something I'm also thinking about at the moment but with a QSC K12.2 active PA cab rather than the Yamaha.

 

If a Kemper/Axe FX etc. is unrealistic then any fall back options may involve compromise or some extended market research to identify a product that meets your needs.  You could go down the conventional route and pick up a chinese made, handwired Tweed combo and run your Joyo pedal through it.  There's also some good stuff made by Mooer but that's all I can offer in terms of my experience.

 

[randythoades]

On 22/04/2023 at 04:00, Kiwi said:

I suppose there could be a whiff of lag when you use the Zoom depending on what it is.  I have a Zoom G3X at home which I don't use any more and it's a little noisy and it lags if I try to record and monitor direct rather than through the DAW.  I think you might be ahead of the curve a little bit with your current set up.  Soon many gigging guitarists are going to end up with profilers like Axe FX/Kemper etc. into an active PA cab instead of a full fat valve amp.  The sound of a valve power amp can be so faithfully recreated through profiling although the convincing tech is only really accessible above a certain price point. 

But anyway, back to your set up.  You have a bunch of requirements that AFAIA aren't necessarily supported in the budget kit that is available, much beyond what you already have.  If you are affected by lag in the Zoom then the simple answer is save up for a Kemper/Axe FX etc.   Your Yamaha active PA cab is probably good for gigging with this kind of modelling set up, if the cab is the one I think it might be.  The Kemper also allows you to profile your favourite OD pedals as well as amps so you could conceivably include your JF14 as a patch (there's one already available to download BTW) or you could use a number of profiles from the original amps that the Joyo pedal emulates itself.  And you could use a Kemper with both bass and guitar.  Something I'm also thinking about at the moment but with a QSC K12.2 active PA cab rather than the Yamaha.

 

If a Kemper/Axe FX etc. is unrealistic then any fall back options may involve compromise or some extended market research to identify a product that meets your needs.  You could go down the conventional route and pick up a chinese made, handwired Tweed combo and run your Joyo pedal through it.  There's also some good stuff made by Mooer but that's all I can offer in terms of my experience.

 

Thanks @Kiwi. Very much appreciated for such a detailed response. I have to be honest, I have considered jumping into the whole Kemper or rack mount world. I could use for recording, practice and live. Good to know that it works for bass too actually. The cost has put me off in reality, but I could sell a lot of gear to fund it and seems to do far more than I would need. I really only need maybe a handful of amps (maybe clean / crunch / dirty amp for guitar and 1 bass) and a volume/booster function for solos.

Also, the rapid change in technology prompts my reluctance, knowing that I could spend nearly £2k on one, just for it to be outdated in 5 years.

 

Maybe it is time to start looking again...!

[Kiwi]

It's great with bass although I'm still on a learning curve.  There are some classic profiles - Trace Mk V, Mesa Boogie Bass 400, SWR SM400, GK RB800 etc. but the quality can be variable.  I would like very much to profile some bass cabinets but haven't figured out the way to do that yet. 

 

The reality of owning a Kemper follows one of two paths. 

1) You use it as a portable portfolio of amplifiers for use in different musical situations, dropping in and out different amps as you see fit.  You learn how to profile amps and become a bit of a mavern in the brands that interest you most, hoarding profiles for that one time you get to use them.
2) You use it to discover new amps and sounds that you've never experienced before and, once you've found ones you like, you generally stick with them.  The Kemper becomes your chosen palette of signature or set list sounds in a highly portable format.

 

You will probably start to question the point of owning any other kind of backline (I know I have).  Mine's hooked up to a Line 6 M5 for additional effects not on the Kemper such as Dimension D and trichorus.  But the M5 classic effects too like the CE1 and MXR Phase 90 are available too if there's a need for something specific.  Some owners use a Helix for effects and Kemper for profiles - pretty much the best of both worlds.

 

 

 

[randythoades]

On 02/05/2023 at 12:35, Kiwi said:

It's great with bass although I'm still on a learning curve.  There are some classic profiles - Trace Mk V, Mesa Boogie Bass 400, SWR SM400, GK RB800 etc. but the quality can be variable.  I would like very much to profile some bass cabinets but haven't figured out the way to do that yet. 

 

The reality of owning a Kemper follows one of two paths. 

1) You use it as a portable portfolio of amplifiers for use in different musical situations, dropping in and out different amps as you see fit.  You learn how to profile amps and become a bit of a mavern in the brands that interest you most, hoarding profiles for that one time you get to use them.
2) You use it to discover new amps and sounds that you've never experienced before and, once you've found ones you like, you generally stick with them.  The Kemper becomes your chosen palette of signature or set list sounds in a highly portable format.

 

You will probably start to question the point of owning any other kind of backline (I know I have).  Mine's hooked up to a Line 6 M5 for additional effects not on the Kemper such as Dimension D and trichorus.  But the M5 classic effects too like the CE1 and MXR Phase 90 are available too if there's a need for something specific.  Some owners use a Helix for effects and Kemper for profiles - pretty much the best of both worlds.

 

 

 

Thanks again for your input. I think the Kemper may initially be out of price range, but I like the idea. I might try a halfway house of something along the lines of the Pod Pro or Eleven Rack to see if I could work with this overall as a concept. And then I can use whatever I get as a portable backup to plug into PA should I need to.

[EdwardMarlowe]

Interesting thread. It's been a long time since I played out so I don't currently have any call for this, BUT if ever I did gig for fun, I'd be seriously looking into a pedal-based amp solution that would let me hop on the tube with a guitar case or two and an amp in my pocket. I've long suspected this sort of thing will come to replace the big amps on stage; these days (and it's been the case since the 90s, really) there's just no technical need to have a bunch of amps on stage. Of course, I'm sure there'll still be a lot of acts will switch to a non-trad amp solution while maintaining a bunch of empty cabs on-stage for the look.... 

FWIW, I remember reading somewhere that the guitar players in several West End shows, most notably the Buddy Holly story and I think, from memory, also the guys imitating the Shadows in Summer Holiday when it was around back when, had empty cabs on stage for the look, but were using Line6 Pods hidden out of sight for the actual sound. My feeling is we'll see more and more of this live, with "the real thing" relegated to the studio. What will be interesting to see will be how it affects the market, big amps like 100w tube stacks having originated in the days when that's how you got heard in a big venue. Now the PA can do all the work.... 

[EdwardMarlowe]

(FWIW, I think a pedal amp that can go into the PA is also a good idea for a back-up when gigging. A decent one with which you are familiar will always be useful in case of an amp letting you down. Either plug into the PA, or a borrowed amp (on which you can just swt it up flat and let your familiar pedal do the work...). 

[Dad3353]

All of the above is assuming the use of IEM, or having a decent-enough foldback monitor system on stage. Small groups/pub bands don't always have this luxury; not all PA systems will accept much more than voice. Just sayin'.

[randythoades]

21 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

All of the above is assuming the use of IEM, or having a decent-enough foldback monitor system on stage. Small groups/pub bands don't always have this luxury; not all PA systems will accept much more than voice. Just sayin'.

Good point, but I think they are on the way to becoming the minority now with the advent of digital PA mixers. A group that doesn't care enough about their levels and being able to hear each other properly seems a little blinkered in these days of fewer venues and stricter sound meters. They will eventually lose out to those who have invested in a different way of doing it. And ultimately, slicker, more consistent setups, soundchecks and take downs after gig save time, effort and money.

We have even had some venues ask about whether we all go through the PA or use amps, they were very twitchy about on-stage volume annoying the neighbours and were very pleased that it all went through the PA and became a little more controllable.

As it happens, I do use IEM at gigs where I can, and have made an effort myself to have all the appropriate PA equipment myself so that I know that I can do this, but understand that not everyone would be willing to buy or store this. We don't tend to so IEM when rehearsing as it is a pain to chat otherwise, hence why I tend to use different setups for jams, full rehearsals and gigs. I would like to be able to use just one setup for every occasion so I know what to expect.

 

As an update, following general advice from @Kiwi I have managed to get a Behringer V-amp Pro rackmount processor and am beginning to test this out. Considering it is probably 15 years old tech (or even older) I am actually quite impressed so far. I am going to try to set up 2 or 3 sounds and take to a rehearsal with my active speaker and see how I get on.

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 29/05/2023 at 11:32, Dad3353 said:

All of the above is assuming the use of IEM, or having a decent-enough foldback monitor system on stage. Small groups/pub bands don't always have this luxury; not all PA systems will accept much more than voice. Just sayin'.

Yes, his is very true - and the reason why I don't think we'll see the end of the traditional amp in the immediate future - though I suspect for Big Names an awful lot more of them will gravitate to playing in front of a wall of empty cabs that are just there for show... Smaller bands (and bands made up of the usual guitarluddites, of course!) will still need an amp... though if the pedals are good enough, maybe that amp might be a much lighter and simpler ss or similar than the tube monster it might once have been (luddism allowing).