Burns Guitars

[EdwardMarlowe]

Any Burns players out there?  I've been a little tempted by the cheaper series Stratalike  Marquee and Cobra models of late, not least given they seem to be selling for Squier money on the used market. Any players/  experience here? 

 

I see the new owners are still teasing the relaunch, which was originally to be 2020, but is now still listed for 2021.... Be interesting to see what they stick with and what they redevelop. Some years ago I did go looking for one of the Marquee four string basses; a friend is one of their endorsees (Al Gare, formerly of the Imelda May Band, Katmen, Palookaville, among others), and while I'll never play like him, they're clearly well up to pro standard usage. Alas, at that point in time they didn't do lefties. We'll see what comes next, personally I'm hoping for more batwing headstocks and maple boards. A backed maple neck & board would be something on a Burns... 

[ezbass]

Never player one, although I like the look of the Hank-tastic Marquee in white. I remember hearing a demo of the Bison, many years ago and being very impressed by the sound. I had no idea that they'd be bought out.

[Dad3353]

I didn't keep my Burns Bison for long, back in the day. I'd very foolishly swapped my Hofner President Thinline Florentine for it (I'd love to find another of those...). A skinny neck, 'quirky' electrics (that's being generous...) and not really suited, at all, to the style I was playing. I traded it for a Vox double-keyboard organ (my then Good Lady wanted to learn keys; both didn't last either...), and finally opted for a Hohner Pianet, which ended up at my parent's house for my father to learn on, which he did until it started to go out of tune, and we found that there's no real way to tune 'em. Oh well... 

[ezbass]

10 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

I didn't keep my Burns Bison for long, back in the day. I'd very foolishly swapped my Hofner President Thinline Florentine for it (I'd love to find another of those...). A skinny neck, 'quirky' electrics (that's being generous...) and not really suited, at all, to the style I was playing. I traded it for a Vox double-keyboard organ (my then Good Lady wanted to learn keys; both didn't last either...), and finally opted for a Hohner Pianet, which ended up at my parent's house for my father to learn on, which he did until it started to go out of tune, and we found that there's no real way to tune 'em. Oh well... 

That’s a proper tale of woe  . Was the Pianet the end of that trail, or was it moved on for something else?

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, ezbass said:

...Was the Pianet the end of that trail, or was it moved on for something else?

 

No, that was the end of that saga, but plenty of others came and went all around. They will be related in great detail in DrumChat.co.uk and PAChat.co.uk in due course. Cars, truck, bikes and more will be dealt with in VariousTransportChat.co.uk, and the first season of 'Maj-Jong For Beginners' will appear in 'ParlourGamesChat.co.uk. Watch this space....

Edited August 14, 2021 by Dad3353

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 13/08/2021 at 17:21, ezbass said:

Never player one, although I like the look of the Hank-tastic Marquee in white. I remember hearing a demo of the Bison, many years ago and being very impressed by the sound. I had no idea that they'd be bought out.

The guys who founded the PMT chain of guitar / instrument shops apparently were looking for a new project after they sold that business, and having done retail thought it would be fun to try the manufacturing end. The business plan from the outside doesn't seem to differ hugely from what went before (cheaper, far-Eastern models made in Korea or China and pitched at the Epiphone  / Squier / lower end of the Fender MIM price band, custom instruments built in London). Rumour has it that the previous owners were very knowledgeable about guitars but struggled with the business side of things - I have no knowledge as to whether that is fair or not. 

The interesting thing about Marvin I only discovered recently was that he moved from the Fender to the Burns, not the other way around.  The main innovation the Burns seemed to have (aside from the Trisonic pickups being somewhere closer a humbucker in SC form than a true SC in their sound) was the vibrato system, which I believe was touted as more stable than the Fender-style. It certainly looks different - it's one of the visual things that appeals about Burns, though  inevitably the more affordable Marquee series has something much more conventional on it. 

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 13/08/2021 at 23:44, Dad3353 said:

I didn't keep my Burns Bison for long, back in the day. I'd very foolishly swapped my Hofner President Thinline Florentine for it (I'd love to find another of those...). A skinny neck, 'quirky' electrics (that's being generous...) and not really suited, at all, to the style I was playing. I traded it for a Vox double-keyboard organ (my then Good Lady wanted to learn keys; both didn't last either...), and finally opted for a Hohner Pianet, which ended up at my parent's house for my father to learn on, which he did until it started to go out of tune, and we found that there's no real way to tune 'em. Oh well... 

The impression I've long had is that the revived Burns (1992 onwards, when the retro guitar boom really started ime) were substantially better built than many originals, though that seems to be a common "secret" with many brands. I've never gotten near enough originals to know for myself, but it's certainly far from an uncommon opinion in the industry that a lot of brands improved markedly in quality when they were bought out or otherwise assumed by the Japanese. 

[Dad3353]

In the late '60s/early '70s, there were yet to be 'classic' guitars that would become reissues, really. Maybe a few people 'at the top' knew how to identify the good'uns; the rest of us scouted around seedy music shops or second-hand shops, trying out whatever we could find. I've already described previously the Hampton Hill 'Mrs Nichols' front parlour (that's where I came across the Hofner President...), or the dimly-lit shop down the station alley in Staines, selling mostly Cathedral strings and kazoos. The Japanese, at the time, were more known for their 'plastic metal' motorbikes; it was the fiefdom of Triumph and Norton, or the Ariel Arrow. My group van was a Thames 15cwt, rescued from a scrap yard, my younger brother's fuzz box was a valve tape recorder, bigger than his (Linear Conchord, all of 15w ...) amp. John Mac, for whom I bought a Shaftsbury Les Paul copy so that he could play lead with us, brought his parent's radiogram to venues (mostly village church halls, or youth clubs...), which took up more space in the van than my Edgeware drums. I was making my own amps, back then, from the newly-published circuits using 4 2N3055 power transistors, for a whole 100w..! I didn't know about speaker cab dimensions, so my 4x12 (with cheap Fanes...) were cut from cheap chipboard, with a face panel 3ft square. That's 3ft by 3 ft; try it, you'll see just how big that really is..! The amps and cabs got covered in the cheapest vinyl I could find, which was quite thick, and turquoise. No wonder that the van was full..! We couldn't afford the 'quality' WEM PA stuff, so hired Simms-Watts, with their weedy little mics. Shades of 'we wuz poor but we wuz 'appy' in there somewhere. It's quite remarkable the difference to be found these days, and the griping and, sometimes, snobbism, that this opulence seems to have generated. Home-made guitars were common, back then, and folk were proud of 'em.
Just sayin'. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Dad3353

[EdwardMarlowe]

IT's certainly incredible how things have come on. I started playing at the turn of the 90s (Dec 91 to be exact), and the difference I see now against then is incredible. Mainly at the budget end, just how ridiculously cheaply you can buy a great guitar, as well as the real rise of the 'mid-price' section of the market, with the likes of MIM Fender being a real contender for a "serious" guitar, you weren't limited to either a bottom rung Squier (which were better than most competitors, but not what they are now) or jumping up to that US Fender that you bought because it was only £50 to £100 more than the Japanese one.... (much bigger gap between the US and MIM models now). The sheer accessibility of guitars and related bits now is crazy, it's such an irony that the market also is, I'm told, smaller than once it was... 

[ezbass]

36 minutes ago, EdwardMarlowe said:

IT's certainly incredible how things have come on. I started playing at the turn of the 90s (Dec 91 to be exact), and the difference I see now against then is incredible. Mainly at the budget end, just how ridiculously cheaply you can buy a great guitar, as well as the real rise of the 'mid-price' section of the market, with the likes of MIM Fender being a real contender for a "serious" guitar, you weren't limited to either a bottom rung Squier (which were better than most competitors, but not what they are now) or jumping up to that US Fender that you bought because it was only £50 to £100 more than the Japanese one.... (much bigger gap between the US and MIM models now). The sheer accessibility of guitars and related bits now is crazy, it's such an irony that the market also is, I'm told, smaller than once it was... 

With the price of MIM Fenders, they should be considered serious, some of them are over a grand now! I’m not sure how or when that happened, I must’ve nodded off and missed something. It’s the quality of the likes of Revelation, SX and Harley Benton* that is impressive today. I don’t know what their cost would be in real terms compared to the ‘70s and ‘80s, but they’re certainly cheap now and punch above they’re price point.

*Other cheap brands are also available  

 

[EdwardMarlowe]

13 hours ago, ezbass said:

With the price of MIM Fenders, they should be considered serious, some of them are over a grand now! I’m not sure how or when that happened, I must’ve nodded off and missed something. It’s the quality of the likes of Revelation, SX and Harley Benton* that is impressive today. I don’t know what their cost would be in real terms compared to the ‘70s and ‘80s, but they’re certainly cheap now and punch above they’re price point.

*Other cheap brands are also available  

 

For sure, the likes of those you mention, Vintage, and a number of others are really something. MIM Fender is interesting in that regard. MIJ was the equivalent when I started. In 1992, I remember £399ish being a fairly common price for a Japanese Fender; I paid £539 in 1994 for my US Standard Strat. THe interesting thing with the MIM range (to a lesser extent the CIJs, though they're much less common here now) is how it overlaps the Fenders now. Like for like, it's very significantly cheaper than the equivalent US Fender - the roadworns are nearly a grand, but the Fender US relics are closing in on two grand. The interesting bit is where you have lower end US Fenders in and around the same price as high end MIM, for comparison. (This has also been the case with Epi and Gibson for a while too).  I imagine that's where they catch those who want a US made guitar rather than a specific set of features. Fender's range is dizzying that way, though all the same I like the idea that they cover such a wide range of price bands, something for everyone. Does feel to me though that in the last few years with the introduction of the Player series there's been a bit of a rejigging, with the American Fenders for the pros (or, if you're cynical, the dentists and lawyers) and the Mexican range for the amateur player (or the working musician on the cynicism scale). 

The best thing Fender have done in years, imo - behind only the Player series and neck and neck with the Classic Vibe Squiers - is that mod shop, where you can, from a set range of options, pick your body shape, neck, pick-ups, finish and so on. I remember posting that idea on forums twenty years ago; I'd very much consider something from that at some future point, it's a great idea. But I'm digressing...

WRT 'cheap' brands, Vintage have proven interesting, especially as their growing reputation has allowed them to add in relatively  more expensive guitars over time. A bit Tokai? I have my eye on the HB DC juniors at present - somehow, to me those seem to capture the actual spirit of the original concept way moreso than a Gibson Junior at several hundred quid. 

 

[ezbass]

I consider Vintage a step up from the brands I mentioned and even from the lower end Squiers. The Vintage LPs I’ve heard have been great and their owners gush about the playability (I’ve certainly been tempted by their Goldtops, on more than one occasion). Their basses are properly good too They certainly are a ‘sleeper’ brand. Where was this kind of choice in the early - mid ‘70s? 

[EdwardMarlowe]

7 hours ago, ezbass said:

I consider Vintage a step up from the brands I mentioned and even from the lower end Squiers. The Vintage LPs I’ve heard have been great and their owners gush about the playability (I’ve certainly been tempted by their Goldtops, on more than one occasion). Their basses are properly good too They certainly are a ‘sleeper’ brand. Where was this kind of choice in the early - mid ‘70s? 

Hell, there wasn't that kind of choice in the mid 90s! 

I remember Vintage starting out as very much a 'budget' brand, but as their reputation has grown they're now producing, in my opinion, some really good, solid working instruments that are far beyond simply 'beginner guitars'. Their vintage and icon series stuff is certainly as good as the high end Squiers - and for my money in some cases snapping at the heels of some of the MIM line. If I was looking for a LP type now, I'd go straight to Vintage by preference over Epiphone, tbh - doubly so for an SG type. 

[police squad]

I have 4 Vintage 6 stringers. 3 or which are my gigging guitars. The forth sits in my office.

All very good, the nut usually needs a little work but other than that, really great.

I have a V58JD, this is for my function/60s band. Very versatile wiring

An SG & 335 a-like for my Paul Weller and Stereophonics tribute bands

Office guitar is a Geoff Whitehorn signature from about 15 years ago

[EdwardMarlowe]

6 hours ago, police squad said:

I have 4 Vintage 6 stringers. 3 or which are my gigging guitars. The forth sits in my office.

All very good, the nut usually needs a little work but other than that, really great.

I have a V58JD, this is for my function/60s band. Very versatile wiring

An SG & 335 a-like for my Paul Weller and Stereophonics tribute bands

Office guitar is a Geoff Whitehorn signature from about 15 years ago

What really says to me that Vintage are a brand that has come of age is that they've been able to attract some pretty serious players as endorsees. You don't want your brand associated with crap, as a rule... 

[police squad]

21 hours ago, EdwardMarlowe said:

What really says to me that Vintage are a brand that has come of age is that they've been able to attract some pretty serious players as endorsees. You don't want your brand associated with crap, as a rule... 

This is very true but the guitars have been very good for the past 15 years, this is when I first tried a relic Strat-a-like at Music Live in Birmingham IIRC. My brother ended up buying one and he is really very fussy about gear, he's no gear snob either, he just couldn't believe how good it was.

 

I'm going to see the Quireboys on Sunday and I know Paul the guitar player uses them. I am proud to use mine because they are that good

[EdwardMarlowe]

23 hours ago, police squad said:

This is very true but the guitars have been very good for the past 15 years, this is when I first tried a relic Strat-a-like at Music Live in Birmingham IIRC. My brother ended up buying one and he is really very fussy about gear, he's no gear snob either, he just couldn't believe how good it was.

 

I'm going to see the Quireboys on Sunday and I know Paul the guitar player uses them. I am proud to use mine because they are that good

Oh, yes - they've always been good, but I mean they're now beginning to get the recognition for it. I'm hoping over time they up their left provision; I really would love one of the pale blue, maple boarded Strat type relics, and their relicy Juniors are to die for. They did do the Blackie-type one lefty for a bit. I'd adore to seem them do one that nodded to Steve Jones' LP Custom, or a relic'ed Tele type that had a hint of Joe Strummer's number one. Was largely Joe that turned me on to the Tele. 

[police squad]

Sometimes they ask, on ther FB page, what people would like them to do.

It must be a pain being a lefty because of the lack of gear. (I'm actually thinking about relearning the bass, left handed, just for a challenge)

 

[Dad3353]

25 minutes ago, police squad said:

... (I'm actually thinking about relearning the bass, left handed, just for a challenge)

 

I did that for a while, equally just 'for fun', and it wasn't so bad. Not that I'm particularly gifted 'righty', of course, but I found the adjustment more a question of sitting posture than hand/finger coordination. Maybe it helps that I play drums 'lefty', and half of my parents and siblings are/were lefty. I've reverted, now, to 'normal' playing, but it was an interesting experiment; I learned a lot. 

[police squad]

17 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

I did that for a while, equally just 'for fun', and it wasn't so bad. Not that I'm particularly gifted 'righty', of course, but I found the adjustment more a question of sitting posture than hand/finger coordination. Maybe it helps that I play drums 'lefty', and half of my parents and siblings are/were lefty. I've reverted, now, to 'normal' playing, but it was an interesting experiment; I learned a lot. 

I've done a little bit by flippimg my Mustang bass over and playing it upside down. I'm trying to analyse my right handed technique and I've noticed I play mainly with my first finger and little finger for fretting. So I'm trying to copy my hand position from the start.

[EdwardMarlowe]

On 03/09/2021 at 16:08, police squad said:

Sometimes they ask, on ther FB page, what people would like them to do.

It must be a pain being a lefty because of the lack of gear. (I'm actually thinking about relearning the bass, left handed, just for a challenge)

 

It's a lot better than it used to be when I started. Fender have gotten a *lot* better than they used to be. Not so many years ago, you had to go all the way up the Fender line to the MIA 57 P Bass before there was a left handed option with a maple fingerboard; at a time, there was also no standard P Bass option available left handed south of the US Std one (rosewood board only). Most makers now have at least one token lefty model, though generally smaller brands are better this way than the big boys. You get a lot of limitations on cosmetics. Maple boards are rare at the cheaper end; of a half dozen colour options, you'll often find only one left handed, usually - sigh - yet another sunburst. Quirky models - i.e. anything not aping a Strat, Tele, LP or *maybe* an SG, you can often forget about. Fender have gotten much better for left handers, though I well remember when the first run of Mexican Jagstangs arrived, and  the model was not available left handed. Yeah, the Jagstang, as designed  by Kurt Cobain... Mn. That said, Squier recently dropped the 50s CV Strat from being available left handed, though they still do the 60s one. Can't be entirely that weird preference for rosewood (or similarly dark) board at the affordable end of the market, though, as they still have the CV 50s Tele lefty. 

Whenever I get around to the Gretsch 5420, it's going to mean more expense. Gretsch don't do a l/h 5420T because Bigsby don't do a licensed trem in left handed configuration - for a southpaw, there's only the US version. They did a lovely LE run of 5420T L/H a couple of years ago in Pelham blue purely because there was a foul-up in some sort of ordering process and they ended up with a bunch of lefty trems, but they don't do it as of standard because it hits the profit margin at that priceband too hard. I hold out hope they'll do some decent colours lefthanded soon. I mean, the orange is a classic, but it's as overdone now as burst. I might consider the black and get it pinstriped, though... 

Ironically, I think the left handed market, while still not fantastic, has improved enormously in the last decade in part due to the guitar market shrinking overall, so lefties suddenly matter a bit more in terms of sales. 

Other than that, it's not so much a big deal. I occasionally wish I could have my pedals re-configured so I could plug the lead in the left so it's not running across my body so much, but that's not the end of the world. The one bonus of the limitations of left handed availability is that it does push you to consider what's available rather than just buying from the Big Brands (e.g. Tokai will often offer a left hander that the "real thing" simply don't make), plus it typically also means you don't get caught up in fads!  
 

 

[police squad]

I've never really thought about the lefty market apart from LH instruments used to be thought of as more expensive.

The big makers are missing a trick if they dont make lefties, surely they can do it

[EdwardMarlowe]

3 hours ago, police squad said:

I've never really thought about the lefty market apart from LH instruments used to be thought of as more expensive.

The big makers are missing a trick if they dont make lefties, surely they can do it

It's an economies of scale thing. 10% or thereabouts of the population in the US and Europe are left handed, so automatically that's a vastly smaller niche market. For a company of the sort of size where they want to be selling 100,000 units or it's not worth tooling up for, you can see why the numbers don't add up on paper to provide the full range left-handed.  It's not that they can't afford it, more that the market just isn't big enough for them to see it as worth it much of the time. Smaller companies are usually more open to smaller niche markets because they don't 'need' to sell 100,000 of everything to make it viable. Notably, although they don't export Westwards much since the MIM plant opened, CIJ Fender have a much better range of left handed options. The Japanese are unusual compared to the rest of the world in that the proportion of their population that are left handed is closer 20%. Definitely makes a difference. 

On average, left handers used to be without fail 10-15% more expensive in the UK, though in recent years I've noticed that price premium gradually disappear from most things. 

[police squad]

I get the economy of scale thing, of course (I work in manufacturing myself) but still I'm surprised the bigger companies don't absorb those costs into their other products to help.

 

Maybe they just can't be bothered with such a small market

[EdwardMarlowe]

2 hours ago, police squad said:

Maybe they just can't be bothered with such a small market

 

I think that's exactly what it is, tbh.