Chibson Les Paul re wire

[DrFingeryaguts]

Oh boy, what to do? New wiring or 1950's wiring, what's the difference?  Oil & paper capacitors or orange drops?

I heard a Gibson with Burst bucker pro pickups on youtube, oh so very nice.

I'm watching some on ebay, and I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with these pickups or recommend anything better?

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

   

[EdwardMarlowe]

If I was going to rewire an LP,  I'd set it up like a Gretsch, i.e. one volume for each pup, a single master tone for both, and a single master volume overall. 

As a rule, I tend to find a sweet spot with a tone pot for each guitar and leave it there; I'd much rather, one a tow vol guitar, have a third master volume so that I could find the right volume balance between the pups and then raise or lower overall volume direct from the guitar without having to go to the amp, or rebalance relative pup volumes every time. 

Not a fan of tapping pups and such - I may be a Stat fan, but there *is* such a thing as a guitar having too many options imo. Might be worth considering other options too, though- like a  HB-sized p90. A lot of folks like the combination of a p90 in the neck and a bucker in the bridge. (Personally, I'd prefer the other way around, but that's to individual taste). 

[Matt P]

i'm not a fan of the standard 4 pot setup either, my epi les paul is just single volume and single tone with the standard 3 way, i have a mini switch in one of the left over holes that splits the bridge pickup and i've got an old bullet casing wedged in the other hole to fill the space.

I went with CTS pots and an orange drop cap, i  can't remember which switch i fitted, possibly a USA one. ( when i bought the guitar it only had one pickup and a volume control so all the electrics were new)

 

Matt

[DrFingeryaguts]

Food for thought; thanks.

 

 

[Kiwi]

All you really need IMHO for a Gibson is some decent PAFs unless you have something specific in mind that needs high output or specific character (like djenting).  As for wiring, I think the sprague orange drop caps are a con and I'm not a fan of twin volumes generally...but there again, I like active guitars so...what do I know? lol

[Matt P]

i found the picture i took of the controls on my epiphone, the bullet casing is a winchester .38 special, it's got a bit of tape on it to make it a snug fit,

the toggle switch has some tubing to take up the extra diameter of the hole and a slightly bigger washer to keep it neat.

 

Matt

[EdwardMarlowe]

Nice. The bullet casing is a clever idea - it looks much more 'finished' than leaving a hole. 

[DrFingeryaguts]

On 04/12/2020 at 01:25, Kiwi said:

I think the sprague orange drop caps are a con

How so?

I've been looking on the net for info on caps, and what I've come up with is; paper in oil "is warm" but don't last, ceramic discs are cheap and looked down on, and orange drops are bright, which is what I want for that country twang. 

I haven't looked in to active yet, but I did read something about them being more precise and better for metal. So what's the advantage, anything I can use for rock & country?  

[Kiwi]

On 19/12/2020 at 05:14, DrFingeryaguts said:

How so?

I've been looking on the net for info on caps, and what I've come up with is; paper in oil "is warm" but don't last, ceramic discs are cheap and looked down on, and orange drops are bright, which is what I want for that country twang. 

I haven't looked in to active yet, but I did read something about them being more precise and better for metal. So what's the advantage, anything I can use for rock & country?  

Various youtube videos that have dissected them to reveal a plain old normal resistor under the orange packaging. 

A bit like this one: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eek0azC6JV0
 

[Dad3353]

8 hours ago, Kiwi said:

...A bit like this one...

He's using cheap Taiwanese pliers, so the all-important mojo escapes. Only a fule would do that. 

[DrFingeryaguts]

Ok, that's not good.

I'm sure they're not all like that (even on ebay).

If paper in oil don't have a good shelf life, then Russian jobs are surely passed it, right? I didn't know the USSR had a guitar regiment.  or is that just a load of balalaikas?

[Kiwi]

On 26/12/2020 at 04:41, DrFingeryaguts said:

Ok, that's not good.

I'm sure they're not all like that (even on ebay).

If paper in oil don't have a good shelf life, then Russian jobs are surely passed it, right? I didn't know the USSR had a guitar regiment.  or is that just a load of balalaikas?

I believe they're still being made, but it's a bit of a rabbit hole to go down.  In any case a lot of these details just end up being hair splitting and make little difference to things to an on stage mix.    I had a set of authentic replica 57 single coils in my Nile Rodgers strat made by some guitar fetishist in Russia.  They had period correct windings and aged Alnico magnets...in fact they were so authentically weak and scratchy that I replaced them with some Fender vintage noiseless.  Be careful what you wish for.

[DrFingeryaguts]

Thanks for the youtube link, I've been watching quite a bit, and the general consensus is: one capacitor is the same as another capacitor. So in the end I went for Orange drops for longevity.

Humbucker cover on or off. I can't tell the difference from a camels backside :) so leaving it as is.

The Gibson pickups that sounded so nice are really too expensive at £200 - £250, and there's no way to see if they're Burstbucker Pro's or lesser jobs. I've gone for IronGear Hot slag at the bridge and Rolling mill at the neck, £71 the pair new inc del. A few Gibson Les Paul owners have done this and are well happy with the results (how odd).

I still don't know about old or new wiring; I'm guessing they changed for the better.

This is where I need your advice. I have four new cts push/pull pots, so my options are: two pots for individual coil splitting, or one master coil split switch. But am I right in thinking that only one push/pull can't change polarity for two pups?          

 

 

[Kiwi]

10 hours ago, DrFingeryaguts said:

This is where I need your advice. I have four new cts push/pull pots, so my options are: two pots for individual coil splitting, or one master coil split switch. But am I right in thinking that only one push/pull can't change polarity for two pups?          

Polarity comes from the orientation of the pickup magnets, it can't be changed via switching.  Neither can the direction of the windings of the pickup.   I have a master split on my Yammie MSG's which works well for me as the only time I ever use single coils is for both pickups at once.  You'll probably need to decide what you need specifically and how much extra complication you want in terms of wiring.

There are some schools of thought that say part of the sound of a Les Paul comes from the wiring  harness and there are a load of companies that specialise in recreations of the LP wiring.  Pots are a complicated thing in terms of inductance and I know that better quality pots do make a slight difference to clarity.
https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/whats-the-go-to-wiring-harness-now-that-mssc-is-gone.436264/

 

[DrFingeryaguts]

Agh, my bad.  I forgot that magnets have poles, and so polarity = confusion.

I was thinking in the terms of electrical polarity, reversing the flow of the current / signal, phase reversing.

https://www.fralinpickups.com/2020/04/19/5-push-pull-pot-mods-you-should-know/

Mod 3 is what I was looking at. 

As I have two volumes & two tone controllers, the obvious choice would be 2 Vol switches for 2 coil splitting, and 2 tone switches for 2 phase reversing. But I was thinking of putting all of that  on 2 switches, leaving the other two switches for something more exotic. But I'm thinking that maybe over kill....... Possibly 

 

[Kiwi]

OK phase reversing is a different thing altogether and involves the frequencies shared by both pickups cancelling each other out to get that Peter Green thing.  I'll be looking into something similar for a project I'm planning - recreation of an Aria RS Esprit but with middle pickup.  I've been advised that phase cancellation will get me in the ball park of positions 2 and 4 on a strat even though I won't be relying on reverse wound reverse polarity in the middle pickup for hum cancellation (each pickup will have a dummy coil and be self sufficient).

I think combining splits and phasing on the same switch is way more complicated than it needs to be, assuming that you have found a push pull pot that can offer all the necessary connections.  Probably better to leave phasing and coil separate but also you'll need to consider whether how the coil splitting will interact with the phase switching.  Are you going to end up in a position where using the phase switches in coil split mode will be like a kill switch due to earthing?  I dunno but it's something I'd be checking.  

Anyways, back on topic:  Have you heard of the site Guitarelectronics.com?  Some useful stuff on there once you've navigated your way past all the product placement.
https://guitarelectronics.com/guitar-wiring-resources/2-pickup-guitar-wiring-diagrams/

For my Esprit project I'm pretty clear about what I want but it needs a rotary switch to keep the number of knobs under control and also because it's the easiest way to make sure that each setting won't interfere with the others.  Something along the lines of: 

Posìtion

1. Bridge only
2. Bridge and middle out of phase
3. Bridge and neck in phase
4. Middle and neck out of phase
5. Neck only

 

[DrFingeryaguts]

I had the same thought my self, using a master volume & tone and using a couple of rotarys for the monkey business.

Thanks for the link, there's a diagram for every possibility :) I just have to make my mind up.  

[DrFingeryaguts]

I'm so happy with what I have done, really over the moon  :)

Recap:  Chibson, neck pick up - Iron gear Rolling mill, bridge pickup - iron gear Hot Slag, 4 CTS long switch pots, orange drop caps, copper earth tape, top hat knobs & position pointers. Just over £400.

I used the Jimmy Page wiring, but in a 1950's vintage style. 

I've only just finished it, and I haven't put it through it's paces so to speak, but the Rolling Mill neck pickup is stonkingly good.  Oh ya.

I'm so glad that I didn't buy an Epiphone  as I more than likely wouldn't have done this mod.

I have learned so much from doing this job; now I can go and do it again with my £40 Hondo Les Paul. I'll Jimmy Page it in the modern style and do a coil tap conversion on the existing pickups, as I like the sound.

Thank you all for your help  :)